Chapter 69: Debate (Part 2)

  Gao Yuan Dao: "What you said is just a matter of the severity of punishment, in my opinion, ritual governance and legal governance are just different names, but the principle is the same. The Confucians emphasize ritual norms, but they also do not reject punishment, while the Legalists establish laws to govern the country, but also stress ren, yi, li, and zhi, it's all about establishing a set of rules to regulate people's behavior, those who violate them will be punished, it's just that the Legalists are a bit stricter, while the Confucians are a bit more lenient, but in essence they are the same."

  At this time, Tian Shu was speechless for a moment, while Shen Sheng seemed to be thinking deeply, and Gongsun Long was even more unclear. At this point, Chunyu Bao smiled and said: "Is it that the gentleman thinks that Confucianism and Legalism are actually the same? Does Qin's rule by law mean that it is also equivalent to Confucian rule?"

  Gao Yuan shook his head and smiled, "Of course not. Just now I only said that Confucianism and Legalism have many similarities, but I didn't say they are the same. Since Confucianism and Legalism have already formed two different schools of thought, they certainly won't be exactly alike."

  Tian Zikai also couldn't help but ask: "So what's the difference between Confucianism and Legalism after all?"

  Gao Yuan Dao: "The biggest difference between the two schools of thought lies in one word, 'change'. The law of the Legalists is to change according to time and circumstances, so each country's laws are different and cannot be communicated with each other. The laws of Qin cannot be used in Zhao, and the laws of Zhao cannot be used in Qin. On the other hand, the Confucians follow the rites, which are based on the rituals passed down by the former kings. They do not change the way of the former kings. For example, Confucius, Mencius, and Xunzi all adhered to the Zhou rites. Therefore, the difference between change and no change is the essential distinction between the two schools, rather than the difference between ritual governance and legal governance."

  The difference between Confucianism and Legalism is already quite clear. To put it bluntly, the Legalists belong to the reformist faction, while the Confucians belong to the conservative faction. The Legalists advocate for change, while the Confucians advocate for maintaining the existing order. It's not about "rites" or "laws", nor is it about "moral governance" versus "legal governance". The Legalists advocate for severe punishment and strict laws, using executions to intimidate the people, but when it comes time to take action, the Confucians won't show any mercy either. When Confucius was appointed as the Grand Minister of Lu State, he executed Shao Zhengmao just seven days later. As for later Confucians, they were no less ruthless than the Legalists when it came to killing people.

  However, from the perspective of later generations, the Legalist's progressive and reformative ideas were certainly more advanced than those of Confucianism. Nevertheless, Confucianism was not without its merits, and its excellent aspects were by no means inferior to those of Legalism. Moreover, from the perspective of imperial rule, Confucianism proved to be more useful in a unified dynasty because it advocated maintaining the existing order, which coincided with the interests of rulers and the vast majority of beneficiaries who did not wish for change. The Legalists themselves also had many shortcomings, so after the fall of the Qin Dynasty, it was inevitable that Confucianism became the orthodox ideology of ancient China.

  But after the fall of the Qin Dynasty, although the Legalists disappeared in name, they did not actually perish but merged into Confucianism. The Confucianism of later generations and that of the pre-Qin era were greatly different, being a fusion of other schools of thought with Confucianism. And although Confucian thought became the orthodox ideology of ancient China, the actual policies implemented in governing the country leaned even more heavily on Legalism, merely donning an outer cloak of Confucianism.

  Many Confucian scholars have a Legalist shadow, advocating for adapting to the times and changing, rather than following established procedures. As a result, the debate between change and unchange has become an eternal topic within Confucianism. Unfortunately, from a macro perspective, conservative forces ultimately overwhelmed reformist forces. On one hand, rulers throughout history have prioritized maintaining their rule, emphasizing conservative forces. On the other hand, this is also determined by the inherent conservative nature of Confucianism itself. Ancient China became increasingly conservative, falling behind the times and losing its leading position in the world.

  Shen Chen let out a long sigh, stood up and bowed deeply to Gao Yuan, saying: "As a student who has studied the Legalist school for twenty years since childhood, I thought I had mastered the Legalist school. It wasn't until I heard your words that I suddenly realized my mistake. The essence of the Legalist school is to change with the times and adapt to local conditions. One day, I will personally visit you and ask for your guidance."

  Shen Zhen's age is not great, but he is also a well-known scholar in Handan. Otherwise, Zhao Jia would not invite him to attend this gathering. And he expressed his admiration for Gao Yuan, showing that he sincerely admired Gao Yuan.

  Tian Zikai also said: "The adults are indeed right, change and unchangeability are the fundamental differences between Confucianism and Taoism. I have just figured it out, thank you for your guidance." He also bowed his hands to Gao Yuan.

  Gao Yuan returned the courtesy and said, "Master, you've gone too far. In fact, I'm just a bystander who happens to be clear-headed." He also had some admiration for the academic atmosphere of this era. Although the debate between the few people earlier was very intense, they all controlled it within the scope of academia, discussing the matter at hand and presenting facts and reasons. Any viewpoint could be expressed without personal attacks or randomly slapping labels on each other. This kind of atmosphere is rare even in modern society.

  Because in this era, it was the most active period of ancient Chinese learning, and Confucian thought was only one of the various schools of thought, and had not yet become the officially designated mainstream ideology. Therefore, when interacting with other schools of thought, they also participated on an equal footing with other schools of thought, without the attitude of later Song and Ming dynasties that considered themselves orthodox and other schools as heretical. This was more conducive to academic development.

  At this time, Tian Zikai said: "However, the former kings were called saints and sages because their wisdom was beyond what we can attain. Therefore, they could establish a dynasty, found a country, create industries, and set examples for us to follow. We should naturally respect them. To deny the way of the former kings is to abandon one's roots and forget one's ancestors. All other things are secondary and will not last if the foundation is not solid. How can branches grow if the trunk is not strong? If the ancestral temple is forgotten, how can the country endure?"

  Shen Chen shook his head repeatedly and said, "The Master's words are incorrect. The reason why the ancient kings became saints is that they were not bound by old laws and could establish laws and rituals according to different circumstances. The ritual systems of Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties were different, but they all ruled the world. The laws established by the Five Hegemons of the Spring and Autumn period were different, but they all gave orders to the vassals. Unfortunately, later generations did not understand the kindness of the ancient kings, only knew how to strictly follow the rituals set by the ancient kings, and did not know how to adapt, which led to the downfall of the country. Therefore, changing according to circumstances is the way to govern the country."

  As the Legalists and Confucians were about to start another argument, Song Rong smiled and said: "Alright, alright, the debate between Legalism and Confucianism has been going on for hundreds of years without any conclusion. You two have argued enough today, but in the end, it's still just the same old words. Not even the differences between Legalism and Confucianism are clear. Let's just stop here for now."

  Tian Zikai also felt that going to argue with a junior was indeed somewhat inconsistent with his identity, and now Gong Sunlong had not yet extricated himself from the earlier embarrassment, with an absent-minded expression, expecting him to argue with Shen Shen would be unreliable. Therefore, he also prepared to withdraw and stop fighting.

  But just then, Chunyu Bo smiled and said: "Doctor Gao has just pointed out the difference between Confucianism and Legalism, and his words have shown great insight. However, my little girl asked you earlier which of these two schools is the orthodox way to govern a country, and you haven't answered yet."

  Chun Yu Zhongxiu also smiled and said: "Yes, almost let the doctor mix it up."

  Gao Yuan also smiled wryly, not knowing whether this father-daughter pair liked to dig deep or intentionally made things difficult for him. Originally, he wanted to muddle through, but being pressed by this pair, he couldn't avoid it, so he could only say: "In my humble opinion, both the Legalist and Confucian schools have their strengths, and are good strategies for governing the country. However, relying solely on one school of thought will make it difficult to bring long-term peace and stability to the nation. If one can master both the Legalist and Confucian classics, taking the strengths of each to compensate for the weaknesses of the other, that would be the right path. The fact that Confucianism was able to establish the Zhou Dynasty for 800 years must have its reasons. Although the Legalists have been dominant for several hundred years, it can't be said that they are necessarily superior to the Confucians; it's just a matter of one being in power at one time and the other at another. Therefore, as for which school is superior or inferior, our generation may still find it difficult to make a definitive judgment. We can only wait for later generations to evaluate them. If it is indeed the right path, it will certainly be passed down. This is just my humble opinion, for your reference."

  This speech is flawless, neither side can find fault. Because from the perspective of modern plateau, both ideas are insufficient, but the plateau does not intend to express its own views. Although the plateau had previously seen some online content where the protagonist travels back in time to ancient times and talks about modern democratic human rights and legal concepts to deceive the ancients, resulting in the ancients being revered as saints, etc., the plateau knows that unless it is Qin Shi Huang or a national marquis, proposing such ideas would be fine, but if it were an ordinary scholar's identity, it would not be able to survive in that country, and would certainly die.

  Although it is now an era of a hundred schools of thought contending, the academic atmosphere is indeed very open and has little political interference. However, this does not mean that anything can be said. The various schools of thought have different views, but none of them deny the monarchy system. On the contrary, they all advocate strengthening the monarch's power and maintaining the monarch's rule.

  If ancient China did not have a "republic" like ancient Rome, then the "abdication system" did indeed exist in the Shang Dynasty. However, among the various schools of thought, none proposed restoring the "abdication system". At most, they would make some superficial remarks, such as "those who usurp power will be punished", "the people are precious, the country is next, and the ruler is light".

  In ancient times, it was universally acknowledged by scholars of various schools that the world was in a state of great unity. Yao, Shun and Yu were also universally acknowledged as sage-kings by scholars of various schools. With so many schools and scholars, it is natural that someone would have thought of the "abdication system" prevalent in ancient times, but no one has ever mentioned it, which shows that even in this era, the atmosphere of learning was relatively open, not absolutely.

  However, Gao Yuan's answer also made the scholars of both Confucianism and Legalism present very satisfied, so they all had a good impression of Gao Yuan. Chun Yu Bo picked his beard with a smile but didn't speak, while Chun Yu Zhong Xiu just gave Gao Yuan a meaningful glance and smiled: "Sir's answer is indeed deeply rooted in the Confucian doctrine of moderation."